Birth Control for Men

[bluesky]

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

This is MADNESS and the people who are making this up need to be put to DEATH. It is unlawful for anyone, man or woman to be using birthcontrol ( Genesis 1:26-28, ) .....No one is supposed to try to prevent birth.

@Iserael---How you going to quote a biblical verse and state folks should be put to death in the same sentence? :wink:

It also says to do burnt offerings of animals to the Lord but we don't do that anymore that's because Jesus brought the good news of the New Testament to clarify anything that was confusing in the Old Testament. Where is the mention against birth control--or even one form? There are none. There are no direct or even mildly indirect statements about such a thing.

I conclude that birth control is not prohibited by God and there must be something else going on in Genesis. What it is, I'm not sure. But to say that it was because of practicing birth control when there is utter silence from Genesis to the last chapter of Revelation with many opportunities to speak clearly on it, however, by not doing so it seems quite obvious to me that God is not deeply concerned about this.

If some precautions are not taken, a couple will normally produce about one child a year. Too many children creates other problems about which the Bible speaks. The Apostle Paul says in I Timothy 5:8, "If a man provide not for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel." There are two ways a man could fail to provide for his own. One would be not to work and the other would be to generate so many children that he could not provide for their needs. If we insist that couples neither deny themselves sexually nor take precautions against conception, but simultaneously insist that the children be supported, we are (for most couples) insisting both on an impossibility and upon a contradiction of plain Bible teaching. The only alternatives the opponents of birth control give mankind is either abstinence, with its pressures toward fornication, or 20 to 25 children for the average couple. The Bible denies both of these.

@ Lizza-- Agreed as I do believe a woman ultimately has to carry a child to term. However, (devil's advocate) do you not think your partner should assist in helping to raise the percentage of "prevention" of accidents in a commited relationship even with the use of condom, if not then why suggest that he uses condoms (besides for STD's/HIV) at all?

So do you think the responsibility of contraceptives rely solely on the woman? If so, where does the responsibiliy of prevention lie (or is there none) with the man?

[Corals]

I don't agree that the Bible condemns birth control as a whole, the only birth control I would say the Bible would condemn is the morning-after-pill, but not everyone would agree with that, and it would depends on one's conscience.

[jamesfrmphilly]

Originally Posted by bluesky

It also says to do burnt offerings of animals to the Lord but we don't do that anymore..........

speak for yourself.

[Tenkawa]

1. Don't care.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Shot.

[Weapon_of_Israel]

@Iserael---How you going to quote a biblical verse and state folks should be put to death in the same sentence?

Because in many Biblical verses it states that if people do evil they should be put to death. (levitics 20:13, Romans 1:26,32, Luke 19:27....)

It also says to do burnt offerings of animals to the Lord but we don't do that anymore that's because Jesus brought the good news of the New Testament to clarify anything that was confusing in the Old Testament.

Actually Bluesky, thats not what it says in the Bible. When the nation of Israel abused the sacrifices God no longer accepted them (isaiah 1:11,13) and the nation of Israel was condemned, Jesus Christ was the last sacrifice and was able to take away the sins of the whole nation, )John 1:29, Hebrews 7:25, hebrews 10:1-10)

My point in going through that was to show you that if a change occured it was stated in the Bible what that change was and why it happened. We cannot just say, well Christ came and this confused me so this changed. You actually have to go into the Bible and show the change.

Where is the mention against birth control--or even one form? There are none. There are no direct or even mildly indirect statements about such a thing.
_____
I conclude that birth control is not prohibited by God and there must be something else going on in Genesis. What it is, I'm not sure. But to say that it was because of practicing birth control when there is utter silence from Genesis to the last chapter of Revelation with many opportunities to speak clearly on it, however, by not doing so it seems quite obvious to me that God is not deeply concerned about this.
_____
If some precautions are not taken, a couple will normally produce about one child a year. Too many children creates other problems about which the Bible speaks.

First of all we need to understand this fact. GOD is the one who gives a couple a child, they just dont "produce" children on their own.

Gen 30:1 And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.
Gen 30:2 And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?

You cannot just assume that people will produce children once every year. Before there was such a thing as birth control,this didn't happen. According to your logic every single person would have had about 30 children or more until the woman hit menopause. That is not the case. Why? Becuase God is the one who gives children. He is in control over a pregnancy. He is the one that sends a SPIRIT into the Body, A pregnancy cannot occur without that. So it is not correct to make that assumption.

Now lets say that God gave a couple MANY children... what does the Bible say about that?

Psa 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
Psa 127:5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

It says a man is supposed to be HAPPY if God BLESSES him with many children. This was the attitude that people had. No one was taking any pills to stop their pregnancy. People back then actually had faith that if God would GIVE them children, he would also give them a way to provide for their children (1 cor 10:13).

Also is God's will for our people to multiply Greatly. The Promise that was given to Abraham was that his seed would be a GREAT MULTITUDE. His offspring would be MANY

Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

And this is not something that is supposed to stop. Even going into the Kingdom with Christ the scripture says "one man shall become a thousand" (Isaiah 60:22).

Within this we can see that it IS God's will for us to have many children and HE is the one who gives children. You are not supposed to defile your body and use some chemical to stop things for working they way they are naturally supposed to (1 corinthians 3:16). Since he is the one that controls whether or not a woman becomes pregnant you are supposed to trust in HIM. Not make up an reason why in your own mind you think it would be better. (proverbs 3:5)

1 tim 5:8, -There are two ways a man could fail to provide for his own. One would be not to work and the other would be to generate so many children that he could not provide for their needs.

So with understanding this, we see that a man just doesn't GENERATE children. 1 corinthians 10:13 said God wont put you in a situation that you cannot handle. So if he does give you many children, he will mkae a way for you to provide for them. Christ spoke about people worrying about things like this in Matthews 6:25-34

If we insist that couples neither deny themselves sexually nor take precautions against conception, but simultaneously insist that the children be supported, we are (for most couples) insisting both on an impossibility and upon a contradiction of plain Bible teaching.

Again... thats something that you made up. The Bible doesnt say that. I actually know people who dont use birthcontrol and have been married and have been just fine.

The only alternatives the opponents of birth control give mankind is either abstinence, with its pressures toward fornication, or 20 to 25 children for the average couple. The Bible denies both of these

The Bible did not deny any of these.

Abstinence

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

Having many children again...

Psa 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
Psa 127:5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

[Blak]

I dont like the idea of putting junk in my body that is approved by these drug authorities....so many times there are side effects. But if it was proven not not have even one side effect, I would consider something in pill form that was SHORT term, like a week or something. No shots of any type....that sounds like what they do to sex offenders...actually, the shot they give women is the same shot! I aint with it.

Not that this matters really....I will be married and have a family on the go by the time they come out with a SAFE BC for men.

Blak

[Corals]

I can't imagine men taking birth control pills. Hell, they will be in bed complaining everyday about the side effects. :LolLolLol

[bluesky]

@ Weapon_of_Israel ----My point is God may have said be fruitful and multiply (Gen1:28) but scripture does not directly address the issue of birth control, rather its emphasis is that children are gifts from God and happy is the man whose quiver is full of them (Ps. 127:5).

Genesis 38 tells of the “motive” behind why contraceptive that is wrong. However, if a person is practicing contraception in order to temporarily delay children until they are more mature and more financially and spiritually prepared, then it is acceptable to use contraception for a time. Again, it all comes back to your motivation. Next time I will take more time to explain the transitions but even with all the great reasons why to have children there is still no reference to where it states do not use a form of birth control.

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

Because in many Biblical verses it states that if people do evil they should be put to death. (levitics 20:13, Romans 1:26,32, Luke 19:27....)

Lev 20:13 is about homosexuality
Romans 1: 26,32 corrupt minds (however, this can be considered corrupt minds if you consider this doing evil)
Luke 19:27 –That’s a parable about the servant who stole the pounds. It is a belief concerning death and applies to the time of Christ's Return.

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

Gen 30:1 and Gen 30:2 --You cannot just assume that people will produce children once every year. Before there was such a thing as birth control, this didn't happen….correct to make this assumption.

True, Rachel is one that can’t have children but what of the other woman that can? It is also safe not to assume that another form of birth control such having a female’s tubes cut, tied or burned was not used as a practice to stop producing children. Is there a reference in the bible that states woman did not do this after so many children in biblical times to prevent having children?

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

Psa 127:4 and Psa 127:5 --It says a man is supposed to be HAPPY if God BLESSES him with many children. This was the attitude that people had. No one was taking any pills to stop their pregnancy.

Actually the true blessing will be provided for those who love and obey the Lord and live by his commandments and from that they and his offspring will prosper. However, is not abstinence, rhythm or pull out method those various forms of contraceptives (preventing pregnancy)? Nor do we know these were not use during biblical times.

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

People back then actually had faith that if God would GIVE them children, he would also give them a way to provide for their children. Also is God's will for our people to multiply Greatly. The Promise that was given to Abraham was that his seed would be a GREAT MULTITUDE. His offspring would be MANY --Gen 35:10 ,Gen 35:11, Gen 26:24, Gen 48:4

And this quote to Jacob after several events Noah’s great flood, famine in Canaan, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, the earth needed to be repopulated.

And this is not something that is supposed to stop. Even going into the Kingdom with Christ the scripture says "one man shall become a thousand" (Isaiah 60:22).

The exact quote is “Isaiah 60:22 The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation. I am the LORD ; in its time I will do this swiftly.” So it’s not about producing or not producing children but the future glory of Jerusalem after the people confessed their sins and how the Lord is going to help them.

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

1 corinthians 10:13 said God wont put you in a situation that you cannot handle. So if he does give you many children, he will mkae a way for you to provide for them.

1 cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The quote is a poor paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which is more accurately paraphrased as, "God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to escape." The folksy paraphrase of the verse changes the meaning of temptation to burden, and it burdens people with an understanding that God "gives" us calamities.

Jesus jumped all over the preachers of his day for burdening people with loads they would not carry themselves. I find this to be one of the most reckless misquotes of Scripture, because God doesn't give us our "share of calamities." Much of what we are "given" is either put upon us by others or self-acquired.


Also, I am trying to figure what is made up about 1 Tim 5:8 But if any do not take care of their relatives, especially the members of their own family, they have denied the faith and are worse than a unbeliever.

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

Christ spoke about people worrying about things like this in Matthews 6:25-34 Again... that’s something that you made up. The Bible doesn’t say that.

Matth6:24 also states One can’t be a slave to two masters; you will hate one and love the other……..you cannot serve both God and money”. This is when Matthew gives us what is popularly called the Sermon on the Mount to the apostles and discusses materialism and its impact on our relationship with God. As for Matthew 6:25-34 directly deals with being worried and troubled about the cares of this life, we become divided and distracted from devotion to God so therefore the apostles need not worry about this but instead go out and spead the word of the God.

I stand by the statement “If we insist that couples neither deny themselves sexually nor take precautions against conception, but simultaneously insist that the children be supported, we are (for most couples) insisting both on an impossibility and upon a contradiction of plain Bible teaching. The only alternatives the opponents of birth control give mankind is either abstinence, with its pressures toward fornication, or 20 to 25 children for the average couple.

As for the issue about abstinence and having children this is when talking about married couples. So don’t forget to throw in 1 Co. 7:5—Do not deny yourself to each other, unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer, but then resume normal marital relations. In this way you will be kept from giving in to Satan’s temptation because of your lack of self control. God made sex pleasurable for us (husband/wife) to enjoy, but he makes it very clear how not to enjoy it (i.e. fornication, or pre-marital sex).

God made sex for two purposes. One, to create a high level of intimacy and "one-ness" (one flesh) between a married couple, and also for the purpose of reproduction. If both are EQUALLY valid reasons, one could argue that as long as what you are doing doesn't harm future success of conception, it is a acceptable practice. (This was my point in the 1st posting)

Originally Posted by Weapon_of_Israel

I actually know people who don’t use birth control and have been married and have been just fine. The Bible did not deny any of these.

Have you asked them why they don’t have children or what is preventing them from being pregnant as there can be a number of reason ranging from the use of condoms, had the woman had a hysterectomy/her tubes tied/unable to get pregnant, the man a vasectomy/low sperm count, pull out /rhythm method, health reasons/risks ect.

As the same can be said for those of us who know a person with a slue of kids and can barely provide for them without the assistance from the state or family members going on the belief of "blessing from God" while not being able to feed, cloth, or shelter them.

With that being said I guess it is up to the individual and thier partner if they choose to use contraceptives.

------I am glad that we both can quote the bible as it's one of the great works that each can use to point or prove their own devices. We could banter all day on the subject in reference to biblical quotes, scriptures AND INTERPETATIONS.

[Weapon_of_Israel]

------I am glad that we both can quote the bible as it's one of the great works that each can use to point or prove their own devices. We could banter all day on the subject in reference to biblical quotes, scriptures AND INTERPETATIONS.

THE REASON why you did all of this........... You went through this long and ridiculous post just to try and show me, "I can quote the Bible too" and to make me think that in some strange way it can be interpereted "both ways." Now i was sitting here ready to correct every single error that you posed but im not gonna do that.

Listen, its not hard to understand. The order is given to multiply, and NOT ONLY in Genesis (you wiill see that further down) then birth control is the opposite of that order. Its simple, thats not hard to understand. The Bible tells you what you are supposed to be doing. If you are not doing THAT, then you are doing something wrong. You are ready to admit that specific practicies aren't recorded in the Bible. Rather than questioning me.... you should be asking yourself.... "if its not in the Bible then why am I standing for it?"

-You stated that "its about homosexuality... is homosexuality evil? Then what is the need to debate on it?

What you should have seen in Genesis is that God is the one who gives you children, HE has the power to withhold and HE has the power to give. You are not to take that power. But rather Trust him.

It is also safe not to assume that another form of birth control such having a female’s tubes cut, tied or burned was not used as a practice to stop producing children.

Assumptions. Thats what your are doing, assuming things. If someone did do that, then guess what? There are scriptures against that too.

its already clear that this was an order given by God, and we also see that it was considered a BLESSING to have MANY children, you show me a scripture where it says OTHERWISE. What you have done is make many assumptions and state many things that the bible does not say.

And this quote to Jacob after several events Noah’s great flood, famine in Canaan, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, the earth needed to be repopulated.

Then explain why its repeated in Jeremiah 23:3 after the eath was already repopulated.

Also, Isaiah 60 says nothing about confessing, it says exactly what i said it says.

You can stand by your statement, but makes you look silly. My grandmother didn't have any money to afford birth control, she didnt have 20-25, children. I know 2 sisters in my church who have been married for years and havent had a child yet. I know of other people who havent used any contraceptives and had 2 kids in the space of 10 years.... so where is this "you WILL produce a child every year coming from?"

With that being said I guess it is up to the individual and thier partner if they choose to use contraceptives.

With that being said, if you want to use contraceptives you are denying the willing of God and putting your soul in Jepoardy.

[saraphen]

"Go forth and multiply!"

After I multiplied times 3, it was time to stop!!