What is this 'beast' called capitalism?

[amilcarkabral]

I've found in many of my dealings with the progressive aspects of the African-American community an aversion to what we think is capitalism. So i'm starting this discussion to start to tease out and identify the nature of this 'beast'. Once we identify it's nature, i'd also like to devise ways to tame it and make capitalism our obedient pet (hunting/guard dog).

So what i'd like to do is explore just what we all think capitalism "is". And what i'll try to do is to the best of my ability to clear up what it is as different from how people are using it.

As a metaphor, any object can be used to build or destroy, and it is not the nature of the tool that is good nor bad, but rather the intentions of the wielder of the object that makes the tool a tool or a weapon. I'm saying that what most people think of as 'capitalism' has been a blend of both intention and object. What i want to do with this discussion is start to tease out the differences between the two, and later, once identified, how we can use this 'object' or 'process' called capitalism to our benefit.

Amilcar

[afrocentric]

What is capitalism?
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion. Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire. It is the system of political freedom.

where are the katrina's rights? they are being homeless due to the demolition of their homes in the projects. imo, the governor could've remodeled those apartments and moved them back in. but he didn't and now these katrinas don't have anywhere to go. and come to think of it, he was the one that said that it should be 'chocolate city' again. what did he do..go back on his word?

[JABOOM]

Originally Posted by afrocentric

where are the katrina's rights? they are being homeless due to the demolition of their homes in the projects. imo, the governor could've remodeled those apartments and moved them back in. but he didn't and now these katrinas don't have anywhere to go. and come to think of it, he was the one that said that it should be 'chocolate city' again. what did he do..go back on his word?

He went and did what his mastas told him to do.

Please don't call them Katrina's that is almost like calling them refugees when they were born and raised there. They are people who lived in New Orleans and were push out and told not to come back. (nothing but love when I wrote this.)

[Sasori]

New Orleans is in the process of gentrification. Wealthy developers are attempting to purchase as much land as possible to redevelop to their liking.

The Governor is a politician who only serves those who could give him the benefit of their votes. Since it is legal, the actions will continue as the Gov will only seek them when needed

Capitalism is what the Republic was founded on, but the moves made in 1913 nullified it, for wealth now is only subjective to what the Fed calls it, the land is not property of the individual, but truly own by the government while the 'land owner' receives a deed [lease] for the parcel lot and pay taxes [rent] on it.
The central bank has done away with the true sense of Capitalism and can't be regulated by any government office, in fact, the government borrows from the Central bank with interest assigned to every dollar loaned

[amilcarkabral]

The "right to property" refers to a person to claim ownership of property, not that all people should have property. You're confusing the two.

And in specific reference to the victims of the Army Core of Improper Engineering, i think it is a shame that the government's response to the incompetence of the ACE was a broad-natured program that benefited the economy and region of New Orleans and not the specific residence of the ? ward that were affected by the incompetence of the ACE

But also there is a media bias that doesn't address the broad swaths of destruction of people outside of the city of New Orleans and the devastation wrought on them by Katrina and not the Army Core of Improper Engineering. In a broader reference, you'll find in cities across America that it is mostly the case that areas of the city with the lowest attractiveness (liable to get flooded, closest to but least access to the highway system, closest to pollution) are filled with Black folk. This is a consequence of a historical inequality in earning that can ONLY be solved by a mostly if not fully black-owned business network who re-cycles their profits into the community by good wages and community beautification projects.

The federal and most state governments have no record of doing things to address the specific needs of African-American communities. NOR WILL THEY EVER.

The intent of this thread is to analyze the beast of capitalism, not to bemoan what the government does or doesn't do for us. Capitalism is separate from the government, hence bemoaning the government should be filed in another thread. The only proper role of government is to protect citizens from harming one another, from businesses from harming citizens and from other countries harming its citizens. Everything else is left up to individuals and families.

This is a thread about CAPITALISM, please stay on topic.

btw: the governor of LA at the time of Hurricane Katrina wass a she. So it wasn't possible for 'him to go back on his word' unless you were mistaken about who was speaking. Also i've seen Ray Nagin speak about how inept, indecisive and non-committal the governor was about helping out the citizenry of New Orleans. So i think it unlikely that she said anything to the effect of helping out those affected by the ineptitude of the AC(I)E. Nor do i/would i believe anything the government said in general (unless Obama's talking about his track record).

Please, keep this thread about Capitalism. We can analyze the government's hipocracy, failure to deliver on promises and other bad things in another thread if you want.

[amilcarkabral]

Sasori, i've got lots of questions for you. And hopefully you'll take them in the spirit in which they were asked: honest questions to know more about your beliefs on this topic. I'd like to really have an in-depth analysis of this topic.

IMO:
The United States of America was not founded on capitalism. It was founded on the enlightenment values of personal freedom. It just so happens that capitalism is the economic system that dovetails with the philosophical and political principles of individual freedom.

What 'moves made in 1913' nullified what?

Wealth is not subjective. That's fancy wordplay and politician speak from the government. You an I know that wealth has real value, even if the government attempts to say that it doesn't. And what has you think that anyway?

Why do you say land is not the property of the individual?

How did the central bank do away with the true sense of capitalism. And what can't be regulated by any government office? Capitalism or the Fed?

[jamesfrmphilly]

capitalism is a system based on individual ownership of property.

[Sasori]

Originally Posted by amilcarkabral

Sasori, i've got lots of questions for you. And hopefully you'll take them in the spirit in which they were asked: honest questions to know more about your beliefs on this topic. I'd like to really have an in-depth analysis of this topic.

IMO:
The United States of America was not founded on capitalism. It was founded on the enlightenment values of personal freedom. It just so happens that capitalism is the economic system that dovetails with the philosophical and political principles of individual freedom.

What 'moves made in 1913' nullified what?

Wealth is not subjective. That's fancy wordplay and politician speak from the government. You an I know that wealth has real value, even if the government attempts to say that it doesn't. And what has you think that anyway?

Why do you say land is not the property of the individual?

How did the central bank do away with the true sense of capitalism. And what can't be regulated by any government office? Capitalism or the Fed?

No problem brother, no offense taken here

In personal freedom, capitalism is what facilitates these freedoms, without that system, others couldn't be established. They [our forefathers]understood this, and the War of Independence was based solely for the fact that we wanted to be commanders of our own future from the motherland [England] which sought to tax our monies and called our state created wealth [monies] counterfeit. It is a nation's right as well as a sign of a prosperous country. Your funding is based off of a standard which is readily redeemable as well as able to convert to other nations through the same method. For a gold bar might cost less in the UK because of their system, but it is readily convertable into value.

This is also the reason why raw diamonds, which may have its flaws, would still redeem monies in any monetary system throughout the world. And the proliferation of Africa sought by many nations as well as corrupt leaders willing to take their payments as such. Because there is transferable, untraceable, value which can't be denied by any nation. It is also why there was a gold rush and many modern day pirates seek to find buried treasure in the seas in order to claim the booty found from shipwrecked vessels in archaic times.

Our nation dealt away with many attempts for them to establish a central bank, thus taking away this monetary power and robbing our nation of its independence and wealth. We were on the gold standard, we also had silver certificates. You could convert a dollar into its sum in gold, and there wasn't an annual tax for it is against the Constitution because of it. The dollar always kept its worth because money wasn't given out pass the amount of gold which the country held [the gold bars in Fort Knox = $$ given to the public].

Back then, land purchased was your own without taxation. Its wealth convertable to gold if needed, and could be apportioned to those in your will without fear of confiscation. That is the basis of Capitalism in America in its essence. The system worked and the nation was wealthy while without debt... then the bottom fell out due to a few greedy people and the dogs of war were released on our nation

The creation of the Federal Reserve Act...
Currently waiting approval under articles, will update when approved

Without money and established means, you are only free of mind. If you work and receive in exchange for your labor a wage, your wage is taxed on legal tender which holds no value other than what the Federal Reserves dictates it is worth. It is not a redeemable monetary note in what our currencies were formerly backed by... precious metals. The only thing you are receiving is another debt and currently perpetuate fiscal bondage not of your own doing, but through monetary policy not controlled by the government.

If you don't want to use wealth, lets use another; riches, savings, value. In this country, nothing is given
It took command of our monetary system. Capitalism as our fore fathers wrote about, their independence, has been taken away. Our Republic which we formerly owned are in debted to private bankers.


When it comes to land, I'll answer it this way:
If you fail to pay taxes on the land which you have a deed, it is taken from you. That is not ownership, that is a lease with the tax as a rent.

Also, the IRS [agents in procuring money for the Federal Reserve] can also seize your property in order to pay them their 'due' if you miss your Federal Taxes.

There is a policy called 'Eminent Domain', which is the inherent power of the state to seize a citizen's private property, expropriate property, or rights in property, without the owner's consent. This is used as common practice by any local government to facilitate monetary moves. The latest case in which I've seen first hand happened in NYC. In Brooklyn, Atlantic Ave area, they used this policy to bounce deed holders from their establishments as old as 30 years to give the land to developers creating shopping centers as well as a stadium for the New Jersey Nets.

This is why I stress an alternative to the plan which have been taught to us. We have been taught fundamentally that homeownership and the procuring of goods is what we should do. Homeownership isn't the way, owning land which businesses are on is what we should focus on. Owning rental property in which we recieve funds to invest in our procurement of financial security other than the legal tender is what needs to be concentrated on.

Fundamentally, you are working to leave financial security and a foundation for your grandchildren, through education and financial backing. It could only happen when understanding the nation's banking and monetary policies have in store for us.

[DBlack]

You lack the full understanding of Capitalism and wish to tell others not to speak of the government. have you not the understanding of what fundamental charges and powers any government has?

All governed societies operate under a central governing body which mandates a economic system. Capitalism is an economic/financial system. The government and capitalism are inseparable. The problem comes in when capitalistic forces or entities, begin to influence government.

[MadameX]

Originally Posted by DBlack

You lack the full understanding of Capitalism and wish to tell others not to speak of the government. have you not the understanding of what fundamental charges and powers any government has?

All governed societies operate under a central governing body which mandates a economic system. Capitalism is an economic/financial system. The government and capitalism are inseparable. The problem comes in when capitalistic forces or entities, begin to influence government.

Well Stated.