What caused space to be?

[Istlota]

Originally Posted by Gorilla

A region of space with absolutely no matter. The observable universe isn't even perfect, but it is an almost perfect vacuum. Also, its one that picks up little pieces of paper on the first pass.

And, then, we must add, nobody yet knows what Dark Matter is, other than the universe is full of it. If Dark Matter is to be considered matter, then the universe is not even close to being any sort of vacuum at all.

As with God, it is impossible to directly prove the existence [i.e., to physically measure] Dark Matter. As with God, we know Dark Matter exists because we can measure, not Dark Matter, but rather its attributes [neters?].

And, hence, from indirectly measuring its effects on the universe, we know that Dark Matter is, as with God, omnipresent.

Interestingly enough, this "stuff" we are calling Dark Matter literally attracts the entire universe to it, just as Dravidian rooted religions say Brahman will, one day, draw the entire universe back into Itself.

The Nature of Dark Matter - Introduction

[Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Istlota

And, then, we must add, nobody yet knows what Dark Matter is, other than the universe is full of it. If Dark Matter is to be considered matter, then the universe is not even close to being any sort of vacuum at all.

As with God, it is impossible to directly prove the existence [i.e., to physically measure] Dark Matter. As with God, we know Dark Matter exists because we can measure, not Dark Matter, but rather its attributes [neters?].

And, hence, from indirectly measuring its effects on the universe, we know that Dark Matter is, as with God, omnipresent.

Interestingly enough, this "stuff" we are calling Dark Matter literally attracts the entire universe to it, just as Dravidian rooted religions say Brahman will, one day, draw the entire universe back into Itself.

The Nature of Dark Matter - Introduction

Dark matter does make up a hell of a lot more mass of the Universe than the other groups of matter; however, this mass takes up basically what we've seen in the observable universe. Dark Energy poses a bigger threat (along with cosmic noise particles). I still think in the vast reaches of space or at some insanely small scale a perfect vacuum can exist. It may not be sustained for very long but it seems possible to me.

Also it maybe worth mentioning the theory about average matter density and the possibility of exceeding critical density and its implications of the expansion of the universe (in terms of the gravitational presence produced by the sum of all matter (dark and light/"visible")....). Since the rate of the universe's expansion is still increasing, I'm gonna have to still bet that just maybe there is a perfect vacuum out there, but space is still a fascinating almost vacuum none the less.

Man this is a fun thread and thank you for that link. I bookmarked it.

http://www.site.uottawa.ca:4321/astr...aldensity.html
Howstuffworks "Dark Matter and the Fate of the Universe"

[Istlota]

Originally Posted by Gorilla

Also it maybe worth mentioning the theory about average matter density and the possibility of exceeding critical density and its implications of the expansion of the universe (in terms of the gravitational presence produced by the sum of all matter (dark and light/"visible")....).

I was unfamiliar with that theory, so I googled it.

WMAP Cosmology 101: Big Bang Concepts

So, here is how I understand it. Correct me if I am off on some of the details.

We do not know whether the universe is finite or infinite. Whether it is one or the other depends on whether the density of the universe is more of less than a certain critical density.

If less, then the gravitational pull of our universe's matter is not sufficient to wrap itself into a ball, and our universe is infinite. This would mean, even taking dark matter into consideration, there may be a vacuum somewhere out there in infinity that does not contain dark matter.

If the density of our universe is greater than, or equal to, the critical density, then the gravational pull of our universe's matter is strong enough to wrap itself into a sphere or some sort of half torus looking shape, which would mean our universe is finite and much less likely to contain a vacuum somewhere without dark matter.

My money is riding on a finite universe, purely for esoteric reasons. One of the seven Hermetic Laws --- the Law of Correspondence [As Above, So Below. As Below, So Above] --- would predict that the macrocosm of the universe would be spherical, as is the microcosm of the sun and the earth, as is the microcosm of the the electron "shell" that surrounds an atom. Also, some esoteric systems teach there are multiple universes, which inherently presumes that each universe is finite.

But, wait. We haven't yet stirred into the mix the very real possibility, suggested by the math of theoretical physicists, that our universe is actually ten-dimensional instead of three-dimensional plus time plus space. But, if that is the case, we might as well just throw our hands in the air now and concede that only a Divine Intelligence would have the capacity to grasp the intricate details of the Real.

[Khalliqa]

Dark matter is a passive force...

like the nature of a woman....



Also,

erm... vacuum.. picking up paper..


lol...



Salaam....
Khalliqa

[Ukali]

.
.
.
...just trying to refine our understandings a little.




Is The Vacuum Empty? The Higgs Field And The Dark Energy


ScienceDaily (May 11, 2007) — The problems in understanding the true nature of the "vacuum" of space were discussed by theoretical physicist Alvaro de Rújula from CERN (the European Council for Nuclear Research) in Geneva, Switzerland, and a professor of physics at Boston University at the EPL symposium, "Physics In Our Times" held 10 May at the Fondation Del Duca de l'Institut de France, Paris.

"As it turns out, the vacuum is not empty - there is a difference between the vacuum and nothingness," he stated. "Surprisingly, of all known 'substances', the vacuum is the least well understood."

From the point of view of cosmology, the vacuum appears to have an energy density, which is sometimes called "dark energy" or the "cosmological constant", responsible for the observed accelerated expansion of the universe. From a particle physics viewpoint, the vacuum is permeated by a "Higgs Field" - named after physicist Peter Higgs. In the Standard Model of particle physics (which has mapped the subatomic world with remarkable success for over 30 years), the masses of all particles are generated as a result of their interactions with this field.

It should also be possible to detect excitations of the Higgs field in the form of a particle known as the "Higgs boson". Detecting the Higgs - the only particle in the Standard Model that has not been observed experimentally - is therefore one of the outstanding challenges in particle physics today. Scientists hope to detect the Higgs using CERN's Large Hadron Collider (LHC), due to come online in November this year. The LHC will be the world's largest particle accelerator, colliding protons on protons at a total energy of 16 TeV (16x1012 eV) to generate what physicists hope will be a slew of new particles, including the Higgs.

The LHC will also search for many hypothetical particles other than the Higgs boson in what is called "physics beyond the Standard Model", with "supersymmetry" being a promising candidate idea. Supersymmetric extensions of the Standard Model predict that all fundamental particles - such as quarks, photons and electrons - have 'cousins': their so-called 'superpartners', yet to be discovered.

Dr. de Rújula's favourite achievement to date, in collaboration with Sheldon Glashow and Howard Georgi, has been understanding the masses of particles made of quarks. "My colleagues Arnon Dar and Shlomo Dado and I also believe we have recently solved the two main problems of high-energy astrophysics, gamma ray bursts and cosmic rays, but astrophysicists do not (yet) agree with this," explained Dr. de Rújula.

Looking to the future, Dr. de Rújula believes that the LHC will teach us "something fundamental". Apart from finding the Higgs, it is possible that the collider will produce the "dark matter" particles indirectly observed in the universe. "However, even if the LHC finds nothing this would also be very interesting because it would tell us that we haven't understood anything about the vacuum. A complete lack of understanding often precedes a scientific revolution" he said.

{emphasis added}

[Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Istlota

I was unfamiliar with that theory, so I googled it.

WMAP Cosmology 101: Big Bang Concepts

So, here is how I understand it. Correct me if I am off on some of the details.

We do not know whether the universe is finite or infinite. Whether it is one or the other depends on whether the density of the universe is more of less than a certain critical density.

If less, then the gravitational pull of our universe's matter is not sufficient to wrap itself into a ball, and our universe is infinite. This would mean, even taking dark matter into consideration, there may be a vacuum somewhere out there in infinity that does not contain dark matter.

If the density of our universe is greater than, or equal to, the critical density, then the gravational pull of our universe's matter is strong enough to wrap itself into a sphere or some sort of half torus looking shape, which would mean our universe is finite and much less likely to contain a vacuum somewhere without dark matter.

My money is riding on a finite universe, purely for esoteric reasons. One of the seven Hermetic Laws --- the Law of Correspondence [As Above, So Below. As Below, So Above] --- would predict that the macrocosm of the universe would be spherical, as is the microcosm of the sun and the earth, as is the microcosm of the the electron "shell" that surrounds an atom. Also, some esoteric systems teach there are multiple universes, which inherently presumes that each universe is finite.

But, wait. We haven't yet stirred into the mix the very real possibility, suggested by the math of theoretical physicists, that our universe is actually ten-dimensional instead of three-dimensional plus time plus space. But, if that is the case, we might as well just throw our hands in the air now and concede that only a Divine Intelligence would have the capacity to grasp the intricate details of the Real.

The website seems pretty accurate. Just one correction, if the density is equal to the critical mass the universe is assumed to be the bottom shape and still infinite. I think M-theory presents a different origin of the universe if I remember correctly. I wish I had some books on that version of it.

As for understanding it all, I think its a given that we never will but its just fun to try.


Thanks for the article Ukali, I wish he was more specific on what he meant by vacuum but it was still informative. It linked to another article that is really interesting too.

Dark Energy May Be Vacuum

fun fun fun fun.

[Big Trap]

I think the dark matter issue is being overly complicated. Maybe because of the cool name ' DARK MATTER '. We can see objects from a far distance in space because of the light it emits, like a star for example. Matter attracts matter so big objects will pull in smaller object via gravity. So there isn't anything stopping a large object that isn't gas or something else that emits light from growing just as huge as something that does emit light. So these large star sized objects won't be seen by us but will have a hell of a gravitational pull. This is what is labeled 'dark matter' Stars don't always explode they could under certain circumstances (depending on what kind of matter it pulled in) just fizzle out and lose that energy that was causing all that heat. Which is another way how a huge star sized object can form but be undetected by us from a far distance. Dark Matter = large object we can't see with a very strong gravitation pull that we can detect.

[Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Big Trap

I think the dark matter issue is being overly complicated. Maybe because of the cool name ' DARK MATTER '. We can see objects from a far distance in space because of the light it emits, like a star for example. Matter attracts matter so big objects will pull in smaller object via gravity. So there isn't anything stopping a large object that isn't gas or something else that emits light from growing just as huge as something that does emit light. So these large star sized objects won't be seen by us but will have a hell of a gravitational pull. This is what is labeled 'dark matter' Stars don't always explode they could under certain circumstances (depending on what kind of matter it pulled in) just fizzle out and lose that energy that was causing all that heat. Which is another way how a huge star sized object can form but be undetected by us from a far distance. Dark Matter = large object we can't see with a very strong gravitation pull that we can detect.

The composition of dark matter is still unknown so I'm not sure why you're saying its being overly complicated. Stars also produce a lot more than just heat we can detect most of the by-products of nuclear fission, the most easily detectable one being every wavelength on the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation (not just visible light). We can also see various stages of stars collapsing (neutron stars for example). Any object we cant see but has a strong gravitational pull isn't necessarily dark matter. Singularities are another thing that exhibits that type of behavior. Dark matter is an assigned designation of the differences in mass and and gravitational interaction with visible matter. Its hardly simple though. Even with gravitational lensing we still hardly know anything about its nature.

[Istlota]

Ancient [i.e., African] civilizations were perfectly comfortable with integrating science and God, while Western science struggles mightily to keep a distinction between the universe and God --- to keep God and the universe separate rather than as One.

So, let me see if I got this right. Western scientists [who, I am sure, know that The Nothingness (AMEN) was a KMT reference to God (RA)] redefined a vacuum to be a substance, not nothingness.

Then, to further obfuscate the One Truth, Western scientists demoted Dark Energy to be, not The Nothingness, but merely a property of a substance of the material world.

But, we are Afrikans, not Europeans, so let us posit an alternate theory -- one no more outlandish than the idea that a vacuum is a substance:

In the beginning, there was the Word [energy], and the Word [Dark Energy] was with God [AMEN], and the Word [Dark Energy] was God [RA].

All things were made by the Word [Dark Energy]; and without Him [AMEN] was not anything made that was made.

In Him [AMEN] was Light [RA]; and the life [HERU] was the light [RA] of men.

And the light [RA] shineth in darkness [the material world]; and the darkness [the material world] comprehended it not.

But, as many as received him, to them gave he power [SEKHER] to become sons [AUSAR] of God [AMEN].

[Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Istlota

Ancient [i.e., African] civilizations were perfectly comfortable with integrating science and God, while Western science struggles mightily to keep a distinction between the universe and God --- to keep God and the universe separate rather than as One.

So, let me see if I got this right. Western scientists [who, I am sure, know that The Nothingness (AMEN) was a KMT reference to God (RA)] redefined a vacuum to be a substance, not nothingness.

Then, to further obfuscate the One Truth, Western scientists demoted Dark Energy to be, not The Nothingness, but merely a property of a substance of the material world.

But, we are Afrikans, not Europeans, so let us posit an alternate theory -- one no more outlandish than the idea that a vacuum is a substance:

In the beginning, there was the Word [energy], and the Word [Dark Energy] was with God [AMEN], and the Word [Dark Energy] was God [RA].

All things were made by the Word [Dark Energy]; and without Him [AMEN] was not anything made that was made.

In Him [AMEN] was Light [RA]; and the life [HERU] was the light [RA] of men.

And the light [RA] shineth in darkness [the material world]; and the darkness [the material world] comprehended it not.

But, as many as received him, to them gave he power [SEKHER] to become sons [AUSAR] of God [AMEN].

How did you reason that a vacuum is a substance? I think I missed something.