Queen Cleopatra Was A Syrian

[jacqui]

I do need a bruh in my corner, I can hold my own but we were created to assist each other. Holding my own is hard without my brothers by my side.

Trust me I didn't mind at all.

Will see you soon.

They are having a tribute ceremony to Mr. Gregory here in a few weeks. I think I might go to it.

He spoke at Church of the Black Madonna some years back and I did the introduction for him. I still am so proud of that.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Baba Ahmed

Greetings jacqui

Yeah I feel whacha mean. This may look off topic, but I had CongressWoman McKinney in mind and fired off my reply. I mean, we Black men really need to think more about "having our sistas' backs," beyond staring at that "extra hump" elder Richard D.y.c.k. Gregory refers to... that they have and we men don't.

I hope that's cool with you; bleeve it I know u don't necessarily need a brutha to run interference for you, like a "pulling guard" ona football field. ;)

Seeya soon.

J&B (hmmm... anyway)

There's a response in this post that indicates that one heard of this information was at least heard about. So, there's some indepedent validity to the post. Now, whether it's a library or online research that is done, expand your resourses and we'll talk. If not that's ok.

signed,

ZORRO [Your Black Brother, Who Will Not Always Site Every Book (page and paragraph) That He Has Read Just To Prove A Point.]

[jacqui]

LOL just what I thought.

If I asked my BROTHER a simple question, my Brother would not have an issue answering it. But like I said no problem.

Zorro we've all heard the opposition to Cleopatra being Black before. My question to you is have you read anything to contradict what most white people want you to believe??? Have you read any books by Black people who speak of Cleopatra and if so what about what they had to say has you agreeing with their opinions about history in regards to this subject??? Knowing Europeans propensity for putting their own spin on history to suit their agenda I am normally inclined to believe my own.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by RanRan

Zorro we've all heard the opposition to Cleopatra being Black before. My question to you is have you read anything to contradict what most white people want you to believe??? Have you read any books by Black people who speak of Cleopatra and if so what about what they had to say has you agreeing with their opinions about history in regards to this subject??? Knowing Europeans propensity for putting their own spin on history to suit their agenda I am normally inclined to believe my own.

I think your questions are very good, and I might consider answering them.

Before I do, let me ask this:

Does a person who says "Merry Christmas" to someone who doesn't believe in a Santa who slides down chimnies with a big gift bag or that Jesus was born on 12/25 have to show page and paragraph every time they say it? For instance, many children are taught to believe this fairy tale as truth. Then, when there was the issue of Santa being black, and off people went teaching not that Santa didn't exist, but that he was a blackman. Same with Jesus. Some started questioning whether he was black. They debated whether he was as european as pictures depicted. How about whether he born on 12/25? Did he celebrate his own birthday? How about Easter? Some people (black and white) support rabbits laying chocolate eggs! Are they asked to show their resourses? [Rhetorical]

Many of this fluff hides the truth about the bottom line issue, and these spider webs are still spun out to children when conclusive research reveals:

1. Santa: No such black or white person, although still taught as a truth by many,
2. Jesus: Wasn't born on 12/25, although still taught as truth by many, and
3. Easter Bunny lays eggs, and then sometimes chocolate, PLEASE, need we go there!!! But still taught as truth by many.

If you haven't noticed my profile, I was expoused to this site while conducting research on a book by a black author. I always do my own homework. With regard to someone having the "propensity" to put their own spin on things, I recognize that the majority of humans (non-white, white, whoever), if not all, have the propensity to put their own spin on things, that's why I do my own research and encourage others to do the same. I'm a truth seeker, not a truth slayer. Further, I think that if writings, especially those of "possibilities" and "probabilities" even some books of fact are to be considered, it should be done carefully and with an opened mind. There's so much speculation. Futhermore, I have no problem with being corrected on anything. Knowledge Is Power!

In this case, many believe that because Cleopatra (of which research supports one response of there being several) was an "Egyptian," was a person of color or a black person. The books that I've read over many years supported her being "an" Egyptian, but it did not conclusively support her as being of Egyptian decent or a person of color or as being black. However, it did conclusively support her lineage as being through one of Alexander the Great's "Syrian" generals. And that is what I'm saying here, Cleopatra was a Syrian.

I still stand on the recommendation of doing further research.

[Baba Ahmed]

OK stay where u are. As u do further research, get to this. Knowledge is power for Afrikans if used for Afrikan benefits. Knowledge alone is not power. Its a word. To spout it is also useful to those who know not; but to spout it w/o actions is counter productive.

We have a saying: he or she who has no teacher has the Devil as a teacher and leader. Not only does research be done, remember also that knowledge is colored by the ones presenting it.

And u have another aggravating habit shown in your words, tho not directed to me: "I think your questions are very good, and I might consider answering them."

Now on Cleopatra*, as I learned, she was Mulatto. One of our reputed Storians calls her a whore; another calls her a fine politician who warded off Roman army for awhile via laying with one its Generals. She definitely was not a Queen Tyre or Pharoah Hatshepsut! And I don't remember the Candace who stop'd cold Italian forces attempts to invade "Ethiopia."

Marimba Ani said it best in my opinion: there's no place for academia among us. Meaning folk with cabinets and shelves with books, etc stacked to their ceilings gathering dusts as they themselves, the scholars, rest on their laurels, speeches etc and tenured positions. We as a people, not pig headed individualists, are at WAR... and have been for thousands of years. Cleopatra was hyped up by Hollyweird; one of'em helped the Romans and Asians in a war against Black Kush peoples. As we see today in Sudan. Afrikans turned into Arabs are killing the so called pagans in the South: Black Sudanese who hold to their Afrikan ways. If u read Chancellor Williams book The Destruction of Black Civilization Great Issues of a Race From 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D. that relatively small book may open your eyes beyond what European historians wrote and write today. Do u know that he says that Egyptians were seen as "White?" That's what the term indicated; for by that time, Mulattos and their "fathers" were in control of the Northeast portion of "Egypt." There's no need today to depend on EuroCentric reports about Afrika or any other First World's peoples. Europeans are for Europeans. Bust. As is natural. But some of us still yet refuse to believe that knowledge producers benefit from what they bring forth; and as I like to say it is colored by those who bring it. There is, in reality, no such thing as pure objectivity except in the minds of folk who're bamboozled by EuroCentric Hegemony. Its educational theories and methods of learning ensure that folk're taught to accept its aims, EuroCentric thought as the only thought in this vast planet called Earth.

If u're not a "cheapie" who use only Public Libraries and online free sources, then RESEARCH for Afrikan own publishers and book stores. Many of today's authors do not put their works in Public Libraries. Like it or not, that's fact. So one has to get in the mix of knowing it. Example: I sell all of Mwalimu Baruti's published words via online site. He pays the publishing costs; does his own distributing and sells his own books as do many other Afrikans. I see it as honoring his works; even I pay for copies of his books. And for many other Afrikan authors; preferrably from them. I've had no problems do n it. All of my interests are not in Ancient Stories. Example: a brutha, Curtis James Morrow aka Kojo-Achampong wrote a book, My Sankofa. Now living in Chicago from where I ordered his book, he tells his story of b n a Black Nationalist during the 1960's bcame disgrunteled with the then Social & Political scene and split to Ghana. Arrived nearly broke; eventually stayed for 11 years. His book can be purchased online, but I ordered mine directly from him. It might be in Public Libraries now. My point? Public Libraries and online resources are very helpful; our struggling scholar/warriors also need our help. I patron them first, when I have the money.

Oh one last point, a personal one, there're many folk I don't "require" supporting documentation from. Usually its an intuitive selection; close reading of their posts, including their general subject areas, helps me. When they get loose, as u did and u're a "new kid" on the block, they get checked. Most are humble and see a check as a pause move; not check mate. None here, methinks, sees him or herself as The tip of this sites mountain of learned ones. I know I'm yet learning and will pass on to the next realm, learning. Might as well be dead, when learning stops.

We should give thanks for the many valiant ancestors and elders who gave and are dedicating their lives for total liberation of The Afrikan Minds to control our bodies.
==================================

*I too was tricked into pumping Cleopatra's accomplishments and thought she was Black. I'm a former jewerly craftsman, who made and sold many "Cleopatra" pendant/heads and of Nefrititi. Purchased ones had euro features; but the names sold. Later, and I give thanks for discovering that neither was all that. Neferteri was the bad one! That was during the 1980's when Afrikan was re appearing as popular. When many Black "scholars" made big bucks as members of a "speech" circuit. They served a purpose, but now is the time for more organizings, plan'n and building. Let our youth learn via OJT and from folk who live as best they can as Afrikans. Unapologetically.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Baba Ahmed

My question is why do u declare something w/o backing? What u've heard and what u've read is cool, but when u're opinion contradicts some of our most learned Afrikan Storians; e.g., Dr. Yosef ben Jochannan a respected for learnings w/three Ph.D.'s; and both honored ancestors Dr. John Henrik Clarke & Chancellor Williams disagree with your conjecture. In fact this is what Chancellor Williams wrote:

"The Ptlomaic period had been largely one of confusion. The division of power among the Greeks, Macedonians and Egyptians, and inter marriages with the later, joint rule, etc., made the Ptolemies at times merely nominal rulers. There were times when a native Afro Asian ruler gained the center of the stage as the star attraction, as in the case of Cleopatra. Upon her death, in 30 B.C., Romans assumed direct control, ruling the country for seven centuries, beginning their reign thirty years before Jesus Christ would be born in the same Palestine where Blacks had lived and ruled so long."

May I ask your purpose for asserting that Cleopatra was Syrian? And instead of you directing sistah Jacqui to a library, u should visit one or an online site. Otherwise u might be seen as one who lied about Ancient Afrikan Stories. Better yet, buy books by either of the three bruthas named above.

Htp.

Out of genuine respect for this specific forum of "Black History," as I mentioned earlier, I don't think that a "debate" should be held here. It would encompass many things off topic.

But those tha you have mentioned always stepped up at any time to pass on what they knew, so out of respect for them, those mentioned and not mentioned, I'll go forward. I'm already familiar with the information that you quote. Although your quoting of Chancellor Williams has nothing to do with the the post of Cleopatra being a Syrian directly, indirectly, if I might add, the Cleopatra that's being referred to is Cleopatra "VII." [In case you didn't know.]

Now are you using this quote to imply that she was a black woman or a person of color? Because other than mentioning that "there were times when a native Afro Asian ruler gained the center of the stage as the star attraction, as in the case of Cleopatra," neither this quote or a statement provided by you support any information that she was. Is the phrase "native Afro Asian" the support? Please help me.

With regard to the Ptlomaic period being "largely one of confusion," I've found that to have some validity over many years of reading. Again, [in case you didn't know] the reasoning is because of there were constant struggles (wars) over world rulership at that time. In this case, struggles that lasted from about 301 B.C.E. until the Romans took absolute control in 30 B.C.E. which was after Cleopatra VII's "death" by suicide. [In case you didn't know.] I say absolute control because although Roman General Gnaeus Pompey made Syria a Roman province around 64 B.C.E., absolute control was around 30 B.C.E. [In case you didn't know.] But the struggle was a constant amongst the off spring of two of Alexander's generals in particular (Seleucus I Nicator & Ptolemy I), and going backward, the first mention of a "Cleopatra" was Cleopatra I daughter of Antiochus III (a Syrian), who was a Syrian princess and "Egyptian" Queen. Antiochus III was a direct descendent of Seleucus I Nicator. Whether one believes this is another matter, but by just knowing it, can one reasonably conclude that Cleopatra I, who was aslo "Queen of Egypt" was an Egyptinan or a woman of color or a black woman or a Syrian woman? I think so. And yes, many marriage alliances were done back there. I think that I have a lot more in common with the "quote" that you provided by Chancellor Williams than you probably realized.

Moreover, some of the writings of many scholars are of their opinion or analysis. Now we probably agree that an opinion can be defined as a "conclusion or judgment held with confidence," and an analogy can be defined as a "similarity without identity," and a conjecture can be defined as to "conclude or suppose without evidence." So, this post isn't a result of my opinion or my analysis or my conjecture, but it is something that I believe after consideration and accept as truth, and interesting enough to post.

As a sidebar, even Malcolm, an exceptional student of life, admitted after his "meeca" that he learned something he never thought was true. So, again I suggest that you do some more research. If you can offset what I've stated here, great, give me the truth. I'm a student of life too. In addition, I recommend that if you're sincerely interested, before you imply that one has or doesn't have, read or hasn't read something, ask them if they had.

I don't go around battling every concept or thought or fact or writing, and I'm not intimidated by any scholar (Phd or not) or man or woman, respected or honored or otherwise. However, I don't attack any for making the statements they make either, even if their statement is accepted as a known mistruth. Now, if you're saying that the post that I presented was a mistruth, that's ok. Just know that the post presented did not "originate" with me, just as the quote that you presented didn't "originate" with you.

I will leave you with this, "...my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh." Ecclesiastes 12: 12

[Baba Ahmed]

WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE? INTENT?

[Nudimmud9]

What is the true long-term or short-term significance of this argument/discussion? If Cleopatra was an extra-terrestrial with green skin and purple blood, what does it mean in the context of your individual self-worth and knowledge? Ultimately, the truth of the matter is, all people come from black people. WE ARE THE BEGINNINGS OF IT ALL FOLKS. That being said, you can also find historical precedent that proves much if not all of the foundation for the modern world in all it’s facets and nuances originated with "African-peoples."

Again, based on those statements of fact I pose the question. What is the true long-term or short-term significance of this argument/discussion?

Just a thought.

[Moorfius]

Hotep

Before the time of any indoeuropean "Invasions" of "Kemet" from the north...there had already been more than (4) so-called African Queens that went by the same name of Cleopatra. There were at least (6) six Black African Queens of the same name. When Alexander "The Barberion" invaded what was now called Egypt by indoeuropeans or Greeks...the Ptolemy people were of so-called mixed race only to give credit to europeans who were and still have stolen the legacy of every African in America and else ware. After the take over of so-called Egypt by the indoeuropean Alexander the Thief...the Greeks set up themselves as the "New" so-called rulers...and this was the start of the Ptolemy Dynisty. The Greeks stayed for a time untill the next group of indoeuropean invaders (Arabs) took Egypt for them selves and are still there today calling themselves Egyptians...a Greek name their brothers gave to the region. It is not unknown that the Whites took every thing and re-wrote history and put them selves in the Kemites or Black Africans place.

Ase`

http://www.swagga.com/queen.htm#cleop